Discussion:
[-empyre-] not usual busynes
(too old to reply)
jaka zeleznikar
2003-03-18 23:28:54 UTC
Permalink
[...]

God's blessing on all nations,
Who long and work for that bright day,
When o'er earth's habitations
No war, no strife shall hold its sway;
Who long to see
That all men free
No more shall foes, but neighbours be.

[...]

(By slovene poet France Prešern, 1800 - 1849,
Translated by Janko Lavrin,
source:
http://www.preseren.net/ang/3_poezije/13_zdravljica.asp )
Melinda Rackham
2003-03-19 02:47:56 UTC
Permalink
thanx for that suggestion tim..
im more than happy to break out of the structure for a moment..

Paul Carter in his great book "the lie of the land" talks about unstable
ground, the unlevel surface, the spongy , porous, rough , irregular,
traditional surface of ground that colonial instincts sought to wipe out,
to flatten, to homogenise. The colonisrs needed to flatten and stablise the
ground of the americas and asia pacific, erasing what existed to reconstrust
wild, different, foreign and exotic parts of the world to mimicic the
familiar and seemingly stable nature and cluture of thier european origins ,
incidently committing genocide on the indigenous populations. unfortunately
we havent learned from our mistakes.. colonialism is still alive and well ..
but rather than european, the nature and culture that is being forced on
the planet comes from a ranch outside waco, texas...

I feel ashamed to be Australian today,
over 70% of our country does not support a war on Iraq, yet out government
has comitted us. and they didn't do it yseterday - they did it it a long
time ago. SAS toops have been training for 9 months in the middle east
specifically for an Iraq offensive. The vote to send troops won't pass
thruough the senate as the majority disagrees..so the prime minister will
not consult the senate!!! astounding politics - i guess if you are ignoring
the UN a senate is a small matter.. A prime minister was removed from office
in the 1970's for much less..
Globally we can thank that other australian Rupert Murdock and his stable of
175 newspapers like the new york post, and the Uk sun and times, and the
australian and daily telegraph , as well dominating tv and cable with Fox
and Sky, for flattening out opposing voices, for backing and promoting
blatent US imperialism.

the most heartening news of a less stable nature is the singing sails of
the sydney opera house.. early yeasterday morning NO WAR was painted in
bloody red on the sydney opera house sails in response to Bushes speech (did
this image reach the rest of the world?).. here are some great pics...
http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/2003/03/18/1047749765232.html


melinda
___________________________

actions if you are interrested:
the Australian Prime Ministers number is 062777700 - ring him and tell him
what you think

Friday 21 is walk out of work day in Australia.

Rally details for around Australia can be found here:
http://www.resistance.org.au/campaigns-antiwar.shtml

March 22 is election day in NSW. you can write NO WAR on your ballot paper.
It will not invalidate your vote and will send a clear message to the
government.
timothy murray
2003-03-19 20:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
Just to add another not very popular opinion...
I'm concerned about this war as well and not at all in
favour, but I've seen very little effort to try to
understand or explain why would the happy couple
Bush/Blair want to fight it. Call me naive, but I
cannot imagine people in that position (and I'm
referring to Blair in particular) would want to
initiate such a disaster for no reason. But Blair is
right on one thing: when in the 30s only a few stood
up against fascism, they went against public opinion.
It was more comfortable to just "do nothing" and wait,
it took courage to react. Saddam is by no mean someone
who deserve the kind of strenuous defense that the
western world has indicated. The Iraqi people do, but
Saddam is keeping the nation in a prehistorical state.
Dear Christiano,

I believe it is clear why Bush and Blair want this war (although I suspect
that Bush's motives are more complex than Blair's, Blair not being a Texas
oil man). Was it mere coincidence in this regard that Bush's first warning
to the Iraqi defenders, in his address on Monday night, was not that they
should avoid chemical warfare (which was only second on his list)? Was it
by chance that he first told the Iraqi people that those who blow up the
oil fields will be punished as war criminals?

Bush and Blair have made their reasons for engaging in this dangerous and
callous action perfectly clear, even though they have yet to share with the
world (and apparently also with the weapons inspectors!) the evidence of
weapons of mass destruction that they claim justifies their war, Let's
hope they're not correct about these weapons that will make the rush into
an unnecessary war all the more dangerous for the underprivileged soldiers
who will be fighting. If they exist, more time might have permitted them
to have been discovered and destroyed by the Inspectors, which also would
have resulted in added international pressure for Saddam's withdrawal).
Yes, this is a very complicated scenario just as it is potentially as
ethically irresponsible on the American side as it has been on the side of
Saddam.

It seems that the many players on the UN Security Council are on pretty
much the same page when it comes to a condemnation of Saddam's fascism.
What's been abandoned is a patient effort to make the weapons inspections
work in a timely fashion that could could help address this fascism and
avert the violence of war. Yesterday even The New York Times editorial
took the unprecedented action on the eve of war to condemn the Bush
administration for its diplomatic failure, what the Times called a
disgrace. The failure is that Bush's people have abandoned the worldwide
dialogue possible within the halls of the UN, have until just this week
turned its back on the Palestinean people and similarly alienated a large
majority of the Arab League, have endorsed unilateral military action that
could lead to aggressive terrorist responses against US, British,
Australian, Spanish, and Italian targets, etc. Bush and his people also
have shattered the European alliance; it's shocking to hear news reporters
in this country tell their listeners to cancel French vacations, not to
purchase French products (but curiously, they've yet to tell people to stop
buying German luxury autos), all because the leaders of those countries
(and Chirac is no leftist) have insisted on maintaining the authority of
the Security Council.

What's more Bush and his advisors are taking on an inredibly expensive war
at a time when national and state budgets are being slashed in the US,
hitting health care, social services, and education particularly hard, to
support a second tax cut that will benefit the wealthiest 1% of the
American population--and this is without adding in the additional
extravagant costs of this war and the subsequent necessary reparations (if
reparations are adequately undertaken as they've yet to be in Afghanistan).
My state, New York, has never recovered from the economic hit it took from
9/11, has never received the money promised to it by Bush for redevelopment
and "homeland security," and now must spend even more money it's never
received from the federal government to beef up security to ward off
terrorists attacks that our government is telling us are "certain" to
happen once war begins. As a result, New York is closing psychiatric
hospitals and treatment centers, slashing health care and social services,
devastating the school budgets, jeapordizing retirement accounts, not to
mention closing libraries and museums and slashing arts support all to
cover indirect costs of a war that has yet to happen.

Your concern for the Iraqi people is understandable, which is why so many
of us do not want them subjected to a rain of missiles comprised of
materials that will subject the survivors to radiating residu for years to
come. Surely there have to be saner and more internationally responsible
ways to proceed.

Best,

Tim


Timothy Murray
Professor of Comparative Literature and English
Director of Graduate Studies in Film and Video
Curator, The Rose Goldsen Archive of New Media Art, Cornell Library
Co-Curator, CTHEORY Multimedia: http://ctheorymultimedia.cornell.edu
285 Goldwin Smith Hall
Cornell University
Ithaca, New York 14853

office: 607-255-4012
e-mail: ***@cornell.edu
timothy murray
2003-03-20 15:16:32 UTC
Permalink
It was very heartening last night as I watched Bush openly declare his war
to know that Empyre is just one small community on the web whose
participants can rely on the net for open and informative discussions of
this world event and, in the case of the Sydney Opera House, its artistic
reponse. I am extremely thankful to all of you who posted your concerns
during the day of "No Business as Usual." So many of us have had direct
and indirect exchanges over the years thanks to exciting and energizing
artworks and critical projects in new media. To have us now pool our
sensibilities for commentaries on this crucial moment of contemporary
history is a testimony, as I see it, to the critical productivity of new
media and its community of artists, curators, and theorists.

The strange American custom of turning aside from dissent during a time of
war is gearing up with the CNN news readers openly condemning Senators
Daschle and Byrd (the lone voices of criticality in the US Senate these
days) for condemning the Bush admnistration for wrecking the channels of
diplomacy. But in my area of Upstate New York, which has had a long
tradition of activism, from the underground railroad to the antiwar work of
the Berrigans in the 60s and the feminist antinuclear movement out of
Seneca Falls in the 70s and 80s, there has been a sudden resurgence of
civil disobedience. Two activists have been arrested for splattering their
blood on the windows of a military recruiting center, and the advertisement
for the National Guard on the billboard across the road from my house (on a
country highway) has been defaced with the rejoinder "Kills Iraqis." So
the tensions over free speech promise to grow more strained, particularly
in this rural area of New York, the kind of place from which so many young
soldiers are recruited fresh out of high school with enticing promises of
exotic travel and high tech education (the irony is that, in essence, so
many of these economically challenged, rural soldiers go into the military
business in search of the very same professional pleasures from which we
all benefit).

Amanda you weren't alone in finding comfort in Melinda's posting of the
Opera House picture gallery. For me, the Opera House stands a symbol of
the cultural productivity of the Australian art world which, as evidenced
by Empyre, has been responsible for such much of what we know of the art
and theory of new media.
Perhaps it is extremely appropriate, then, that we will now be turning our
attention to the pedagogical project between Ithaca and Sydney that Norie
and I engaged in this fall. Even when speech in the public sphere of the
media is in peril, the classroom and museum and cultural institution can
continue to set aside space and time for critical reflection on world
events. In our case, the experimental innovations of new media artists and
theoreticians led us to contemplate broad areas of artistic intervention,
from digital terror and mnemonic trauma to military tracking and corporate
censorship.

Norie will be posting a brief report on our efforts that we hope will
expand our consideration of the unstable ground of "curating."

Yours in peace.

Tim


Timothy Murray
Professor of Comparative Literature and English
Director of Graduate Studies in Film and Video
Curator, The Rose Goldsen Archive of New Media Art, Cornell Library
Co-Curator, CTHEORY Multimedia: http://ctheorymultimedia.cornell.edu
285 Goldwin Smith Hall
Cornell University
Ithaca, New York 14853

office: 607-255-4012
e-mail: ***@cornell.edu
Phil George
2003-03-19 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi Melinda
are you around in week 7 ie 14 April


Phil
Simon Biggs
2003-03-19 09:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melinda Rackham
I feel ashamed to be Australian today,
-----
I also feel ashamed to be Australian and ashamed to live and work in the UK.
I am ashamed that the governments of almost all the English speaking
countries of the world seem to have lost their minds and decided to start a
war without provocation, the support of their people or international
support. The UK, the USA, Australia and their allies have now entered the
same hall of infamy reserved for the Nazi's, the Facists, Pol Pot's Year
Zero and the like. I look forward to Bush, Blair and Howard receiving the
same garlands (and justice) the leaders of those earlier regimes enjoyed.

best

Simon


Simon Biggs

***@littlepig.org.uk
http://www.littlepig.org.uk/
http://www.greatwall.org.uk/
http://www.babel.uk.net/

Research Professor
Art and Design Research Centre
Sheffield Hallam University, UK
***@shu.ac.uk
http://www.shu.ac.uk/
Cristiano Bianchi
2003-03-19 17:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melinda Rackham
the Australian Prime Ministers number is 062777700 -
ring him and tell him
what you think
Just to add another not very popular opinion...

I'm concerned about this war as well and not at all in
favour, but I've seen very little effort to try to
understand or explain why would the happy couple
Bush/Blair want to fight it. Call me naive, but I
cannot imagine people in that position (and I'm
referring to Blair in particular) would want to
initiate such a disaster for no reason. But Blair is
right on one thing: when in the 30s only a few stood
up against fascism, they went against public opinion.
It was more comfortable to just "do nothing" and wait,
it took courage to react. Saddam is by no mean someone
who deserve the kind of strenuous defense that the
western world has indicated. The Iraqi people do, but
Saddam is keeping the nation in a prehistorical state.


And sorry, but the "no war" sign on the opera house is
a crime against art: everyone know what public opinion
think about this war, no need for childish effort that
damages a shared patrimony. Just my 2 penny opinion.

Regards, Cristiano


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
Josephine Bosma
2003-03-19 19:26:02 UTC
Permalink
CB> And sorry, but the "no war" sign on the opera house is
CB> a crime against art: everyone know what public opinion
CB> think about this war, no need for childish effort that
CB> damages a shared patrimony. Just my 2 penny opinion.

I hope you are no Lionel Richie fan:

http://www.zen15631.zen.co.uk/bb.mpg



;)


J
*
Melinda Rackham
2003-03-20 03:46:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josephine Bosma
CB> And sorry, but the "no war" sign on the opera house is
CB> a crime against art: everyone know what public opinion
http://www.zen15631.zen.co.uk/bb.mpg
ahh the eroticism of power...
isnt that what serial killers get off on?

but back to opera house - the white sails are actually regularly used as a
curated space - a
large canvas for projections in art and festival events in sydney..
officially people like designer marc newson put subtle sparys of lava lamp
type moving colour over
it.. unofficially people like deborah kelly and http://www.boat-people.org/
do projections about social issues like refugee detention before they are
hauled away...
its a public art space -some people just have more access to it than
others.
no damage was done that couldnt be washed off the next day unlike bombs
which kill people.

m
timothy murray
2003-03-20 04:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Bush has begun his war. Light a candle for peace.

Tim

Timothy Murray
Professor of Comparative Literature and English
Director of Graduate Studies in Film and Video
Curator, The Rose Goldsen Archive of New Media Art, Cornell Library
Co-Curator, CTHEORY Multimedia: http://ctheorymultimedia.cornell.edu
285 Goldwin Smith Hall
Cornell University
Ithaca, New York 14853

office: 607-255-4012
e-mail: ***@cornell.edu
John Hopkins
2003-03-19 20:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
I'm concerned about this war as well and not at all in
favour, but I've seen very little effort to try to
understand or explain why would the happy couple
Bush/Blair want to fight it. Call me naive, but I
cannot imagine people in that position (and I'm
referring to Blair in particular) would want to
initiate such a disaster for no reason. But Blair is
right on one thing: when in the 30s only a few stood
up against fascism, they went against public opinion.
It was more comfortable to just "do nothing" and wait,
it took courage to react. Saddam is by no mean someone
who deserve the kind of strenuous defense that the
western world has indicated. The Iraqi people do, but
Saddam is keeping the nation in a prehistorical state.
Somewhat simplistic comments follow, but there is much more to say in
this direction -- to clarify the principles of engagement currently
exhibited... And avoid being swamped in media noise which only
serves to confuse the issues!

Thinking about "defense" is part of the problem. Having worked for
some years in "Big Oil," it is clear that this is merely one battle
in a long-term offensive Oil War. I would suggest a re-read of the
classic history of the major oil companies "Seven Sisters." Control
of the Gulf area is a key factor in the rise of the post-WWII
Military Industrial complex most characterized by the US hegemonic
power...

In order to better understand the principles of what is going on --
one can look at/decode/model the situation from a thermo-dynamics
point-of-view. A highly structured system (the nexus of global
capitalism, the US Military-Industrial-Technology machine, and other
developed countries) needs an influx of energy to maintain the degree
of order required to 'survive.' Without a constant influx of energy,
an ordered system immediately begins to tend to disorder. In the
case of the US Military, given the intense level of 'order' needed to
project its coordinated heirarchic power, it needs a massive influx
of energy. While Oil is not the only energy source, it is the
primary source, so, the system is merely seeking to guarantee its own
survival by securing its energy source. (Parallel situations:
English naval power related to existence of first growth timbers for
construction; English Imperial power and control of human energy
sources (tea, sugar, coffee, cocoa); Spanish imperial power and gold
(a flexible resource convertible into vast quantities of energy)...)

By the turn of the 19th Century, armies no longer 'ran on their
stomachs' because of technological advancements that required energy
inputs into the system -- coal & iron among other resources -- so
that the military machine was forced to extend the range and
consumptive power beyond merely killing humans and reaping the
traditional spoils of war that satisfied the immediate bodily
functions of the foot-soldier -- rape and plunder... Instead,
militaristic hegemony had to guarantee stable resources

An obverse condition that arises, which has interesting ramifications
-- when energy is drained from one point to 'fill' another point, the
overall level of 'organization' drops as there isn't the energy to
maintain order -- witness the results in a place like Afghanistan,
where decades of draining has rendered a society where order is low,
tending to immediate local physical controls. Compare that to a
highly structured and controlled society in the US where the controls
can be projected over large spaces and distances.

It takes energy.

"They" know it!

While it is 'entertaiing' to read about the personal exploits of
these idiot greedheads in power, it is critical to understand the
principles that drive not only their thinking, but their lives, their
deaths, and their souls!

jh
Gregoire Zabe
2003-03-20 08:17:30 UTC
Permalink
The most paradoxical human virtue
is his great adaptability

contrasts, mismatches, discords
avoids the trap of numbing senses

that's one of artist's part
so let's keep wide awake
and express with accuracy.

there are other voices than brutality and power excess on this planet.







grégoire zabé / designer, artiste, enseignant à l'école supérieure des arts
décoratifs de Strasbourg

www.inframonde.net a participative landscape - presented at web3dart 2003
www.nobox-lab.com/itm inside the machine - l'infoguerre dans l'épaisseur du
delay
www.nobox-lab.com
***@nobox-lab.com
Jim Andrews
2003-03-20 11:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregoire Zabe
The most paradoxical human virtue
is his great adaptability
contrasts, mismatches, discords
avoids the trap of numbing senses
that's one of artist's part
so let's keep wide awake
and express with accuracy.
there are other voices than brutality and power excess on this planet.
well said. and may they deconstruct war machines. war machines have to be taken apart,
deconstructed. Whether they are Iraqi or American.

i read a while ago the proposition that there are two superpowers: the gov of the USA and world
opinion. oh, uh, let's not forget those who control media. Part of what the Internet is about is
making sure the USA (or any other) government does not control all the media, nor their
interests. and, thereby, world opinion. propaganda becomes (more) widely believed and floods the
channels. including these ones, if only because it is not considered propaganda but mundane
truth within the 'community'. These lists are international enough, however, that often there is
no concensus on what is propaganda and what isn't. Different sides are represented. Then we can
make up our own minds much more accurately.

yet it seems clear that this involves the world more dangerously than Kosovo or Serbia. Or
Afghanistan.

mercy on the Iraqi people and God help us all, God willing. which must get hard, like lifting
the stone God cannot lift.

ja
Amanda McDonald Crowley
2003-03-20 13:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melinda Rackham
the most heartening news of a less stable nature is the singing sails of
the sydney opera house.. early yeasterday morning NO WAR was painted in
bloody red on the sydney opera house sails in response to Bushes speech (did
this image reach the rest of the world?).. here are some great pics...
http://www.smh.com.au/photogallery/2003/03/18/1047749765232.html
melinda
___________________________
It did reach parts of the rest of the world via you, Melinda. Thanks. Feel
a very long way away from anywhere in Finland, I have to say! Just got here
last week from Delhi...

A


--
Amanda McDonald Crowley
tel: +358 (0)440 344 441
e: ***@autonomous.org / ***@va.com.au
Cristiano Bianchi
2003-03-20 16:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Thanks John. I've heard this interpretation before,
but I still cannot make sense of it. It is somohow
natural (although not ethical fair) that most
political actions are driven by economical factors. If
we think how much money does it take for a US
President to get elected, I think it's kind of natural
that founder will want something back. The market
drives politics (I'm simplifying a lot, please forgive
me).

Until I did some reserach, I was convinced that the US
were close to be self-sufficient in their oil
production. Instead, in 2001, they imported 55% of the
oil they consummed. This is of course higher for all
European countries (except France, which is largely
powered by nuclear plants). Despite being allowed to
produce 3.5M barrel/day from UN, Iraq (and its
nationalised oil companies, produce about 2M, with a
sensible effect on oil prices and a policy of favour
towards certain coutries (e.g. India).

By introducing a more "friendly" regime, and allow
privatisation of oil companies, of course US and UK
aim at influencing the market.

But it is also true that part of the agreement after
the 1991 gulf war was for Saddam to disarm, which he
never complied to. I hardly belive that Iraq poses a
treat to western countries, but diplomacy didn't
succeed that much, of was just lazy.

Another trouble is that the green beret has also to
respond to the weapon industry, who paid (some of) his
election bill...

Let's hope it doesn't get too sanguinary.

Cristiano

PS Good summary on
http://in.news.yahoo.com/020923/43/1viab.html


--- John Hopkins <***@uiah.fi> wrote: > >I'm
concerned about this war as well and not at all
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
in
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
favour, but I've seen very little effort to try to
understand or explain why would the happy couple
Bush/Blair want to fight it. Call me naive, but I
cannot imagine people in that position (and I'm
referring to Blair in particular) would want to
initiate such a disaster for no reason. But Blair
is
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
right on one thing: when in the 30s only a few
stood
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
up against fascism, they went against public
opinion.
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
It was more comfortable to just "do nothing" and
wait,
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
it took courage to react. Saddam is by no mean
someone
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
who deserve the kind of strenuous defense that the
western world has indicated. The Iraqi people do,
but
Post by Cristiano Bianchi
Saddam is keeping the nation in a prehistorical
state.
Somewhat simplistic comments follow, but there is
much more to say in
this direction -- to clarify the principles of
engagement currently
exhibited... And avoid being swamped in media noise
which only
serves to confuse the issues!
Thinking about "defense" is part of the problem.
Having worked for
some years in "Big Oil," it is clear that this is
merely one battle
in a long-term offensive Oil War. I would suggest a
re-read of the
classic history of the major oil companies "Seven
Sisters." Control
of the Gulf area is a key factor in the rise of the
post-WWII
Military Industrial complex most characterized by
the US hegemonic
power...
In order to better understand the principles of what
is going on --
one can look at/decode/model the situation from a
thermo-dynamics
point-of-view. A highly structured system (the
nexus of global
capitalism, the US Military-Industrial-Technology
machine, and other
developed countries) needs an influx of energy to
maintain the degree
of order required to 'survive.' Without a constant
influx of energy,
an ordered system immediately begins to tend to
disorder. In the
case of the US Military, given the intense level of
'order' needed to
project its coordinated heirarchic power, it needs a
massive influx
of energy. While Oil is not the only energy source,
it is the
primary source, so, the system is merely seeking to
guarantee its own
survival by securing its energy source. (Parallel
English naval power related to existence of first
growth timbers for
construction; English Imperial power and control of
human energy
sources (tea, sugar, coffee, cocoa); Spanish
imperial power and gold
(a flexible resource convertible into vast
quantities of energy)...)
By the turn of the 19th Century, armies no longer
'ran on their
stomachs' because of technological advancements that
required energy
inputs into the system -- coal & iron among other
resources -- so
that the military machine was forced to extend the
range and
consumptive power beyond merely killing humans and
reaping the
traditional spoils of war that satisfied the
immediate bodily
functions of the foot-soldier -- rape and plunder...
Instead,
militaristic hegemony had to guarantee stable
resources
An obverse condition that arises, which has
interesting ramifications
-- when energy is drained from one point to 'fill'
another point, the
overall level of 'organization' drops as there isn't
the energy to
maintain order -- witness the results in a place
like Afghanistan,
where decades of draining has rendered a society
where order is low,
tending to immediate local physical controls.
Compare that to a
highly structured and controlled society in the US
where the controls
can be projected over large spaces and distances.
It takes energy.
"They" know it!
While it is 'entertaiing' to read about the personal
exploits of
these idiot greedheads in power, it is critical to
understand the
principles that drive not only their thinking, but
their lives, their
deaths, and their souls!
jh
_______________________________________________
empyre forum
http://www.subtle.net/empyre
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com
Cristiano Bianchi
2003-03-20 16:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josephine Bosma
http://www.zen15631.zen.co.uk/bb.mpg
Great one, I knew about that. But also:

Dinner for three at a convention of surgeons. The
first one goes: "I'm the greatest. I had this man who
had lost 7 finger in a car accident. I reattached them
6 months ago: he'll be playing a piano solo next week
for the queen of England!"
The second: "Well, not that impressive. I had this
athlete who lost both his legs in a plane accident. I
reattached them and he'll be running 110 hurdles at
the next olympic games."
"You guys are just amateurs, sorry" says the last. "I
had this chap, riding a horse frontally against a
train coming at 120mph. All I had left to work with
was the horse's ass and a cowboy hat. He's now
President of the United States".

Maybe old, but gives the idea...

Cristiano
Post by Josephine Bosma
CB> And sorry, but the "no war" sign on the opera
house is
CB> a crime against art: everyone know what public
opinion
CB> think about this war, no need for childish
effort that
CB> damages a shared patrimony. Just my 2 penny
opinion.
http://www.zen15631.zen.co.uk/bb.mpg
;)
J
*
_______________________________________________
empyre forum
http://www.subtle.net/empyre
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